ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

[Twodogs]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

I have no problem with the players appealing.

So if the case is reheard, is there a possibility that the players (Crameri) could be missing part of next year as well?

Who knows? I dont even know what the Burden of Proof is in the Swiss Tribunal is.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

If the players take injunctions and the bans are upheld... Wouldn't that mean the suspensions need to start again from when they last played? So if they play this year they could be banned for much longer owing to the backdating of the current suspensions??

[Greystache]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Yep. But remember who the first ones to appeal were, it wasn't the players. People want to pot the players for appealing and saying they should just accept the CAS's finding. In that case how come WADA get to appeal and the players don't? is that fair?

WADA had to appeal so there could be a hearing. The AFL tribunal was just a public relations event aimed at brand protection, just like everything else the AFL does. It was just another Melbourne tanking hearing, or Talia spying investigation, the result was decided before it began, it was just a matter of presenting something that masqueraded as process.

Id have liked to see them apply for an injunction. This is a bullshit appeal that serves little practical purpose, its a bit like having a shower with a raincoat on. I would have preferred to see the players take WADA on and destroy it. WADA must be destroyed and an honest and competent organization that takes its job seriously and wants to get at the truth must be installed in its place.

I really can't understand the position you've taken on this TD. WADA is the only group that stops sports becoming like MLB baseball and body building, that is organisations where the sporting bodies themselves choose whether or not members of their own sport should be held account for doping violations. In an environment where the money to create drugs that can't be detected outweighs the money invested in tests to detect them 10 to 1 there has to be a body that has the power to prosecute cases where circumstantial evidence is used. It's the only hope for clean sport.

[Twodogs]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

The telling thing about this appeal is that they are not seeking an injunction. If they were 100% adamant of their innocence, they would have no hesitation in seeking an injunction allowing them to play while the dates are confirmed for the appeal. Without an injunction, this appeal is a complete waste of time for the players.

Win or lose, they won't be playing in season 2016, just as they won't be had they accepted the decision. The only winners out of this latest appeal are the lawyers - they must be shattered that EFC have now run out of avenues to piss more money and resources and time down the drain.

The players are damned if they do and they are damned if they don't. If they do seek and injunction people will say they are just trying to get out of it and if they don't then people will say what you said. I don't think that preconceived views on the guilt or otherwise of the players does anyone any good. Its obvious that CAS went into this with the agenda of doing everything they can (Legal or illegal, moral or immoral) do to pot the players. I understand thats their job, but not at the cost of confidence in the CJA.

[LostDoggy]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

In fairness to TD, as I read it, he's not saying an organisation like WADA shouldn't exist, just that such an organisation itself needs to uphold the best standards of procedural fairness and ethical principles.

If it is also way short of the mark, we need to tear it down and start again. He may or may not be right (I haven't looked into it enough), but that stance is different from supporting/going soft on the cheats.

[LostDoggy]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

If the players take injunctions and the bans are upheld... Wouldn't that mean the suspensions need to start again from when they last played? So if they play this year they could be banned for much longer owing to the backdating of the current suspensions??

As I understand it, that's why they have not taken out injunctions - they can't risk putting all the time already served in jeopardy.

Nonetheless, if the CAS rulings are found to be illegitimate and the bans are lifted prior to the full 2 years being served (from November 2014), I am wondering whether those last few months could be hanging over the players head if the case is reheard.

[Bornadog]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

What if the appeal is successful and we find out in June or July that the CAS rulings are found to be illegitimate. The players would therefore be no longer banned and theoretically free to return to their lists? Would that happen?

What a mess at Essendon - what if a couple of the 'topups' are perfrming really well?

Also, if the appeal is successful, it shows that the CAS procedure was faulty, not that the players were innocent. Does this mean the matter is over, or does the whole thing (god forbid) need to be reheard?

Let's say the players are successful and presume it is June/July. Would they be fit enough to play with no real pre-season or match practise.? The season would only have maybe 5 weeks to go, so the injunction is a big risk.

[Twodogs]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

WADA had to appeal so there could be a hearing. The AFL tribunal was just a public relations event aimed at brand protection, just like everything else the AFL does. It was just another Melbourne tanking hearing, or Talia spying investigation, the result was decided before it began, it was just a matter of presenting something that masqueraded as process.



I really can't understand the position you've taken on this TD. WADA is the only group that stops sports becoming like MLB baseball and body building, that is organisations where the sporting bodies themselves choose whether or not members of their own sport should be held account for doping violations. In an environment where the money to create drugs that can't be detected outweighs the money invested in tests to detect them 10 to 1 there has to be a body that has the power to prosecute cases where circumstantial evidence is used. It's the only hope for clean sport.

I want an honest and proper anti drug body. WADA take a position and prosecutes it to the nth degree with no regard to the truth.

Call me old fashioned but I thought the whole point of the exercise was to get at the truth. Is WADA being truthful? I expect the players to try and extract themselves from trouble, that doesn't surprise or worry me. When the organization with all the power lie and cheat and disseminate, that worries me.

I'm looking beyond today. I tend to agree that the players are guilty. But nobody has provided me with incontrovertible evidence that's what happened and if i am going to point the finger i want to be bloody sure of my facts. If we are going to be lazy with the facts and not want to trouble ourselves to get at the truth because it is inconvenient or doesn't suit our prejudices (and there is nothing more prejudiced than following a football club.)

Ive said this before but just because we cant get the real guilty parties (Hird, Dank, et al) docent mean we should take our frustrations out on the players.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

I want an honest and proper anti drug body. WADA take a position and prosecutes it to the nth degree with no regard to the truth.

Call me old fashioned but I thought the whole point of the exercise was to get at the truth. Is WADA being truthful? I expect the players to try and extract themselves from trouble, that doesn't surprise or worry me. When the organization with all the power lie and cheat and disseminate, that worries me.

I'm looking beyond today. I tend to agree that the players are guilty. But nobody has provided me with incontrovertible evidence that's what happened and if i am going to point the finger i want to be bloody sure of my facts. If we are going to be lazy with the facts and not want to trouble ourselves to get at the truth because it is inconvenient or doesn't suit our prejudices (and there is nothing more prejudiced than following a football club.)

Ive said this before but just because we cant get the real guilty parties (Hird, Dank, et al) docent mean we should take our frustrations out on the players.

Sorry TwoDogs, but the players had an obligation under the code that they are signed up to.

That obligation was to report EVERYTHING in the way of supplements and medications. They failed to do so. That in itself incurs a 2 year suspension.

The instigation of the football club and its officials does not remove the player obligation.

[LostDoggy]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Sorry TwoDogs, but the players had an obligation under the code that they are signed up to.

That obligation was to report EVERYTHING in the way of supplements and medications. They failed to do so. That in itself incurs a 2 year suspension.

The instigation of the football club and its officials does not remove the player obligation.

Agree. Not only that, text messages were produced between players and coaching staff showing they conspired as a group to keep details from their medical staff and the outside world.

In a world where Ahmed Saad sits out longer for consuming a commercially available sports supplement he should've checked, these guys behaviour is enough for me to lose sympathy. They all knew what they were taking was 'close to the edge' and did precious little (if anything) to check if they'd cross the line.

As professional athletes they signed up to a code.

If anything, the silver lining from this case should be that players will never again naively go along with whatever they are told and show blind faith in the people employed to assist them. In short, they will accept that they need to act as adults.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Agree. Not only that, text messages were produced between players and coaching staff showing they conspired as a group to keep details from their medical staff and the outside world.

In a world where Ahmed Saad sits out longer for consuming a commercially available sports supplement he should've checked, these guys behaviour is enough for me to lose sympathy. They all knew what they were taking was 'close to the edge' and did precious little (if anything) to check if they'd cross the line.

As professional athletes they signed up to a code.

If anything, the silver lining from this case should be that players will never again naively go along with whatever they are told and show blind faith in the people employed to assist them. In short, they will accept that they need to act as adults.

Well said. They also tried to cover their tracks in other ways. Denied Dank was at games, until presented with evidence that the communicated with him on match days.

[Bornadog]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

If the players win the appeal, CAS and WADA can also appeal.

This will go on forever,

[LostDoggy]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

If the players win the appeal, CAS and WADA can also appeal.

This will go on forever,

Or until Essendon's insurers have grounds to bail out

Has anybody heard who the insurance company is? They must be filthy.

Wonder if this fiasco has jacked up the premiums of other clubs?

Either way, as long as we have certainty on Crameri's (and Prismall's) availability, EFC can stay in this whirlpool to oblivion for as long as it wants for all I care.

[Twodogs]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Or until Essendon's insurers have grounds to bail out

Has anybody heard who the insurance company is? They must be filthy.

Wonder if this fiasco has jacked up the premiums of other clubs?

Either way, as long as we have certainty on Crameri's (and Prismall's) availability, EFC can stay in this whirlpool to oblivion for as long as it wants for all I care.

I'm pretty sure all 34 are appealing.

[Greystache]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

WADA take a position and prosecutes it to the nth degree with no regard to the truth.

I don't agree. WADA (or in most cases its local affiliate) investigates suspected doping, makes a decision on whether there are grounds for explanation (show cause notices), and based on those outcomes makes a decision on whether to press forward with charges to be heard before a tribunal (infraction notices). It's then up to the athlete to accept or defend the charges. That's exactly how a process should work. It's no different to police arresting and charging someone for a suspected crime and presenting them before a court and having a judge/jury make a decision on their guilt. WADA are the prosecutors, CAS is the court.

Call me old fashioned but I thought the whole point of the exercise was to get at the truth. Is WADA being truthful? I expect the players to try and extract themselves from trouble, that doesn't surprise or worry me. When the organization with all the power lie and cheat and disseminate, that worries me.

The whole point is to protect clean sport, the truth will come out in the process. The defendants will lie, as they almost always do, the prosecution will present the other side, and the truth will be the conclusion drawn by the court as supported by the evidence. That's what has occured in this case, and nothing I've seen from WADA suggests they've been untruthful.

I'm looking beyond today. I tend to agree that the players are guilty. But nobody has provided me with incontrovertible evidence that's what happened and if i am going to point the finger i want to be bloody sure of my facts. If we are going to be lazy with the facts and not want to trouble ourselves to get at the truth because it is inconvenient or doesn't suit our prejudices (and there is nothing more prejudiced than following a football club.)

Ive said this before but just because we cant get the real guilty parties (Hird, Dank, et al) docent mean we should take our frustrations out on the players.

Incontrovertible evidence in most examples of life is unrealistic, because in most cases the guilty have a great deal of motivation to destroy incriminating evidence. That's why we have courts to make a decision on who is guilty and who is not. The emphasis on proving innocence and guilt varies from arena to arena based on the consequences of the findings, but the purpose is always the same, and that is to determine who's side of the story is the more likely.

While WADA or its affiliates would like to get the coaches and sports scientists involved, it's not actually their priority. As long as they can prosecute the athlete then the essence of clean sport is protected. It also makes the task of doping an athlete more difficult as the athlete themselves are less likely to be compliant knowing the consequences.

Let's not forget the AFL's tribunal gave Steven Dank a lifetime ban from sport as part of their findings. They found they were comfortably satisfied he doped athletes in his roles as sports scientist in other codes, just not at Essendon conveniently. The less said about the AFL's tribunal the better.