ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

[Bornadog]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

I think it's fair though that an over the counter product should be viewed differently to a chemical compound that is purchased illegally/ on the black market. Sure, a penalty should still be in place but I think they could be given levels of seriousness.

Purchased illegally is a whole different area and Police should be involved. There are many products available at a Pharmacy but contain substances that are considered as performance enhancing and therefore banned for athletes. Just ask Shane Warne.

[Greystache]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

(controversy alert).....Saad is a wog - he looks like he should be lighting flares at Wanderers games. Not the sort of "good bloke you can have a beer with" that the footy media can make a hero out of and get their constituents to buy into and swallow the hero narrative. He's an expendable commodity as a result.

If you think about it, he drank a legal soft drink in a one-off incident whereas the EFC 34 doped themselves silly with literally thousands of injections done under the cover of darkness from their club doctor and off-site away from the club itself. It is mind-boggling the lengths the footy community is going to absolve the players of any wrong-doing and justify their bone-headedness (and best) or their cheating, duplicitous behaviour (at worst).

That's a really stretching the conspiracy theory beyond the the bounds of imagination. The Essendon players didn't test positive to anything (at least that was admissible) so there was always going to be people questioning their guilt or their level of culpability.

Saad tested positive to a banned drug found in a readily available product. As did Crowley, as did Keefe and Thomas, and they were all given suspensions. In fact Saad got a lesser sentence than the Collingwood pair.

The footy media fawn all over anyone non-white, constantly talking up their background, exaggerating their performance, and celebrating their diversity, even when the player's a hack. It's a bit sickening the way they carry on, and certainly the opposite of excluding the non-Anglo Aussie as you're suggesting.

[Sedat]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

That's a really stretching the conspiracy theory beyond the the bounds of imagination. The Essendon players didn't test positive to anything (at least that was admissible) so there was always going to be people questioning their guilt or their level of culpability.

Saad tested positive to a banned drug found in a readily available product. As did Crowley, as did Keefe and Thomas, and they were all given suspensions. In fact Saad got a lesser sentence than the Collingwood pair.

It's not a conspiracy theory, it's just the way Australian media operates. Crowley is not a marketable commodity that the footy public can warm to either (thug, dirty tagger - not to mention he's from another country, Western Australia, so the Melbourne AFL media mafia don't care ). As for Keefe/Thomas, they were never going to engender sympathy from the public because they were coked out of their heads when inadvertently taking a banned PED - that's like a red flag to mainstream Australia.

By contrast the media narrative on Watson/Essendon has been so incredibly sympathetic and heroic - it has been one of the better well-oiled PR campaigns in recent memory, very thorough and orchestrated to the nth degree. But scratch away the white-noise and the players (led by their captain) lied to testers, they lied to their own club doctor, they went offsite to perform the injections away from any scrutiny from club doctors, they signed consent forms, and they injected themselves thousands of times with numerous substances they don't (or claim not to) know was in them (despite signing said consent forms). The players really shouldn't get any sympathy from the general public or the media, but they have and it is simply the way of the Australian 'good bloke you can have a beer with' sports media world (which is magnified 10-fold in the insular little bubble of Melbourne and AFL journos)

The footy media fawn all over anyone non-white, constantly talking up their background, exaggerating their performance, and celebrating their diversity, even when the player's a hack. It's a bit sickening the way they carry on, and certainly the opposite of excluding the non-Anglo Aussie as you're suggesting.

That is certainly the case with indigenous players and it can be cringe-worthy and tiresome - wouldn't say it is that way with other non-Anglo Australians. I find it quite humorous, and a little quaint, that Australian TV and media execs still struggle to come to terms with the fundamental changes that have been undertaken in Australian society since WW2 - in their mind the Australian way of life hasn't changed since the 50's. Probably a topic for another time and in a different forum but interesting nonetheless.

[Greystache]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

It's not a conspiracy theory, it's just the way Australian media operates. Crowley is not a marketable commodity that the Australian public can warm to either (thug, dirty tagger - not to mention he's from another country, Western Australia, so the Melbourne AFL media mafia don't care ). As for Keefe/Thomas, they were never going to engender sympathy from the public because they were coked out of their heads when inadvertently taking a banned PED - that's like a red flag to mainstream Australia.

By contrast the media narrative on Watson/Essendon has been so incredibly sympathetic and heroic - it has been one of the better well-oiled PR campaigns in recent memory, very thorough and orchestrated to the nth degree. But scratch away the white-noise and the players (led by their captain) lied to testers, they lied to their own club doctor, they went offsite to perform the injections away from any scrutiny from club doctors, they signed consent forms, and they injected themselves thousands of times with numerous substances they don't (or claim not to) know was in them (despite signing said consent forms). The players really shouldn't get any sympathy from the general public or the media, but they have and it is simply the way of the Australian 'good bloke you can have a beer with' sports media world.

I think much of the support in the media has come from Essendon supporters who work in the media and aren't professional enough to separate their personal interests with their professional responsibility. People like Rohan Connelly and Slobbo have destroyed any credibility they may have once had with their cheer leading and pom pom waving for their team. The Jobe Watson support I'd suggest has more to do with Tim Watson using his many media platforms to paint Jobe as the victim, as well as rounding up his mates to join the cause, rather than him being a good white bloke.

That is certainly the case with indigenous players and it can be cringe-worthy and tiresome - wouldn't say it is that way with other non-Anglo Australians. I find it quite humorous, and a little quaint, that Australian TV and media still struggle to come to terms with the fundamental changes that have been undertaken in Australian society since WW2 - in their mind the Australian way of life hasn't changed since the 50's. Probably a topic for another time and in a different forum but interesting nonetheless.

Not just indigenous, did you know Bachar Houli is Muslim? Or Lin Jong's parent BOTH come from different Asian countries? Or that Majak Daw is the first Sudanese player in the AFL? They're some of the best known players in the league thanks to the media campaigning, and none of them could be considered quality players (obviously Jong will win 3 Norm Smith's in time!)

[Ghost Dog]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

I think much of the support in the media has come from Essendon supporters who work in the media and aren't professional enough to separate their personal interests with their professional responsibility. People like Rohan Connelly and Slobbo have destroyed any credibility they may have once had with their cheer leading and pom pom waving for their team. The Jobe Watson support I'd suggest has more to do with Tim Watson using his many media platforms to paint Jobe as the victim, as well as rounding up his mates to join the cause, rather than him being a good white bloke.



Not just indigenous, did you know Bachar Houli is Muslim? Or Lin Jong's parent BOTH come from different Asian countries? Or that Majak Daw is the first Sudanese player in the AFL? They're some of the best known players in the league thanks to the media campaigning, and none of them could be considered quality players (obviously Jong will win 3 Norm Smith's in time!)

Hey! Down at Whitten Oval they call Lin Jong Mr September, I will have you know. But seriously, even for a one-eyed supporter like me, I'd have Jong over Houli ( scary decision making ) and Daw ( x2).

[jeemak]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

I think much of the support in the media has come from Essendon supporters who work in the media and aren't professional enough to separate their personal interests with their professional responsibility. People like Rohan Connelly and Slobbo have destroyed any credibility they may have once had with their cheer leading and pom pom waving for their team. The Jobe Watson support I'd suggest has more to do with Tim Watson using his many media platforms to paint Jobe as the victim, as well as rounding up his mates to join the cause, rather than him being a good white bloke.



Not just indigenous, did you know Bachar Houli is Muslim? Or Lin Jong's parent BOTH come from different Asian countries? Or that Majak Daw is the first Sudanese player in the AFL? They're some of the best known players in the league thanks to the media campaigning, and none of them could be considered quality players (obviously Jong will win 3 Norm Smith's in time!)

Have you considered commentators aren't actually fawning over non-white footballers, but are actually mentioning their ethnicity over and again because they're lazy as shit and can't be bothered finding anything else out about them?

[Greystache]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Have you considered commentators aren't actually fawning over non-white footballers, but are actually mentioning their ethnicity over and again because they're lazy as shit and can't be bothered finding anything else out about them?

Yes, and I've dismissed it. When there's entire segments dedicated to a player who struggles to command a regular senior spot purely because he's not an Anglo-Australian then I'll struggle to accept the media will only celebrate a white good bloke, as was the original suggestion.

[jeemak]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Whole segments on novelty ethnics!

I think there's some merit in what sedat was originally arguing with respect to Saad, and if he was a blue eyed blond Aussie he may have had more sympathy from the media.

[Remi Moses]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Who's condoning the Chinese, East Germans or Russians?

Apologies,me wrong

[Remi Moses]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

I see where Luke's coming from, and unfortunately young men in a team sporting environment are dictated to by people they should be trusting .
We do embrace other cultures into our game, and sometimes go overboard with undue praise on their ability.
I've always found it odd that a country holds onto another countries flag in its corner, and it's head of state is British .
That's another argument for another day

[Twodogs]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Sorry TwoDogs, but the players had an obligation under the code that they are signed up to.

That obligation was to report EVERYTHING in the way of supplements and medications. They failed to do so. That in itself incurs a 2 year suspension.

The instigation of the football club and its officials does not remove the player obligation.

I don't agree. WADA (or in most cases its local affiliate) investigates suspected doping, makes a decision on whether there are grounds for explanation (show cause notices), and based on those outcomes makes a decision on whether to press forward with charges to be heard before a tribunal (infraction notices). It's then up to the athlete to accept or defend the charges. That's exactly how a process should work. It's no different to police arresting and charging someone for a suspected crime and presenting them before a court and having a judge/jury make a decision on their guilt. WADA are the prosecutors, CAS is the court.



The whole point is to protect clean sport, the truth will come out in the process. The defendants will lie, as they almost always do, the prosecution will present the other side, and the truth will be the conclusion drawn by the court as supported by the evidence. That's what has occured in this case, and nothing I've seen from WADA suggests they've been untruthful.



Incontrovertible evidence in most examples of life is unrealistic, because in most cases the guilty have a great deal of motivation to destroy incriminating evidence. That's why we have courts to make a decision on who is guilty and who is not. The emphasis on proving innocence and guilt varies from arena to arena based on the consequences of the findings, but the purpose is always the same, and that is to determine who's side of the story is the more likely.

While WADA or its affiliates would like to get the coaches and sports scientists involved, it's not actually their priority. As long as they can prosecute the athlete then the essence of clean sport is protected. It also makes the task of doping an athlete more difficult as the athlete themselves are less likely to be compliant knowing the consequences.

Let's not forget the AFL's tribunal gave Steven Dank a lifetime ban from sport as part of their findings. They found they were comfortably satisfied he doped athletes in his roles as sports scientist in other codes, just not at Essendon conveniently. The less said about the AFL's tribunal the better.

Thinking about it you're both right. My biggest beef was the initial reports about the players not being able to appeal. I just thought it was a bit rich that WADA got to appeal the initial finding but the players didn't get to appeal CAS's judgement.

Now they get their day in court or federal tribunal or whatever then I'm happy. It's up to them whether they sought an injunction I guess.

[Bornadog]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Thinking about it you're both right. My biggest beef was the initial reports about the players not being able to appeal. I just thought it was a bit rich that WADA got to appeal the initial finding but the players didn't get to appeal CAS's judgement.

Now they get their day in court or federal tribunal or whatever then I'm happy. It's up to them whether they sought an injunction I guess.

A couple of things to note:

1. If the players win the appeal, they will not be proven innocent of taking banned drugs.

Why? This sums it up

(from The Age) The appeal has been made on the ground that CAS erred in determining that the WADA appeal should be conducted as a de novo hearing. That is, WADA should only have been allowed to appeal the unanimous decision of the AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal on grounds of either legal error or that it was grossly unreasonable."

Secondly, players say CAS did not consider the players' arguments on a case-by-case basis, and thirdly, they say the penalty the players were given is unreasonable.

2. The injunction - As I mentioned earlier, if the players want to play next year then better to err on the side of caution and sit out the current season, otherwise if you lose the appeal, but take out the injunction, then you miss next season.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

A couple of things to note:

1. If the players win the appeal, they will not be proven innocent of taking banned drugs.

Why? This sums it up

(from The Age) The appeal has been made on the ground that CAS erred in determining that the WADA appeal should be conducted as a de novo hearing. That is, WADA should only have been allowed to appeal the unanimous decision of the AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal on grounds of either legal error or that it was grossly unreasonable."

Secondly, players say CAS did not consider the players' arguments on a case-by-case basis, and thirdly, they say the penalty the players were given is unreasonable.

2. The injunction - As I mentioned earlier, if the players want to play next year then better to err on the side of caution and sit out the current season, otherwise if you lose the appeal, but take out the injunction, then you miss next season.

Yeah.That's the main thing that sticks for me. It's just another attempt at wriggling out of the mess on a technicality. They're not actually challenging the evidence or the case itself, just hinging their whole futures on a technicality. I can't believe that the players still operate as a unit on this matter.

[LostDoggy]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Curious turn of events with Mick Malthouse offering to train/mentor the 34 players through their ban. Probably quite healthy for them as a group, rather than fill in the time individually.

Would be very strange for the likes of Crameri to be in a group with all of the Essendon guys for a year end then head back to us. Maybe it's a positive for us as Crameri and Prismall can be in their ears about their futures.

[Twodogs]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Curious turn of events with Mick Malthouse offering to train/mentor the 34 players through their ban. Probably quite healthy for them as a group, rather than fill in the time individually.

Would be very strange for the likes of Crameri to be in a group with all of the Essendon guys for a year end then head back to us. Maybe it's a positive for us as Crameri and Prismall can be in their ears about their futures.

It's a good offer. Everything should be done to keep the guys together and to annoy the bejesus out of the turds at WADA.