ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

[Sedat]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Stupid players receiving stupid advice. This will end in tears.

[Greystache]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Not true. The suspension handed out by CAS factored in provisional suspensions already served and a range of other factors. If one reads the finding carefully the bans were for two years less varying amounts of time already served.

Most players still in the system have their suspensions run out in November. Anyone who was out of the AFL system before they were served with a Show cause notice are serving a full two years from the date of the verdict, less the provisional suspension.

This is something that most have missed when discussing the sentences.

That's right. And if they appeal the decision, get an injunction to play from round one, and then lose, their two year original sanction will start from the appeal verdict. No backdating, so hence they will have to serve the full two year sanction.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Stupid players receiving stupid advice. This will end in tears.

Note to JMac, the bounty of gun players from Essendon who could walk as DFAs might not be the opportunity we all hoped for. Best case scenario is ending in tears really, would really end in meaning most careers, livelihoods, relationships, financial security in life, mental health and so on. I find it disappointing really, if we lose Stew for two his career is cooked and there's no refunds on pick 26 we traded for him. It's easy to say, but he should've taken his slap on the wrist and been primed for a massive season with infinite opportunity. Now he's out, Grant gone as surplus, Dicko to get a better defender and out set up not as strong. I don't like any of it and wish we'd not gone down this dark alleyway.

[Greystache]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

I'm a bit torn on this issue. I think some of the Essendon players are victims of the regime, while some are very much complicit in the activities that went on, but I don't think we can differentiate on who should be held to account for what went on

I appreciate that Peter Gordon wants to protect our player, and don't doubt he feels Crameri has been harshly dealt with, and the lawyer in him wants to clear his name, but I don't think pursuing an appeal is the right course of action. It creates the perception that we support dubious practices when it affects one of our own, when otherwise we'd be comfortable seeing others held to account.

The notion of being duped just doesn't stand up when looking at the broader context. We wouldn't accept a Russian or Chinese coach doping athletes and holding only the coach to account, we would expect all parties to be punished. Otherwise who's to say that coach/sports scientist wouldn't offer to take the fall each time dubious practices come to light, while the athlete is free to compete. The only way for clean sport to prevail is for all parties to be held to account without emotion.

Peter Gordon is the one of the all time Bulldog greats, but I can't support the position he's taking on this

[bulldogtragic]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Also interesting, Essendon has been signing up top up players to replace suspended players, presumably on good enough money. If the suspended players take injunctions to play the Essendon senior playing list will be well over 50 players and be millions of dollars over the salary cap, plus upgraded rookies need their pay topped up. If the top up players then get dumped and if they've lost income from passing up coaching, playing in other leagues etc, then they have a very simple breach of contract and Trade Practices Act law suit against Essendon worth millions and millions potentially.

When your in quick sand the harder you thrash, the worse your situation. But lawyers everywhere rejoicing in the cash that will be floating around even further and longer.

[LostDoggy]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

When your in quick sand the harder you thrash, the worse your situation. But lawyers everywhere rejoicing in the cash that will be floating around even further and longer.

That'd be the same lawyers advising the players?

[bulldogtragic]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

That'd be the same lawyers advising the players?

Assuming their bills get paid, yes. Not many lawyers will tell you that you can't win, I'd like to think if I were appealing I'd have invested $10,000+ on each of three independent (away from footy clubs, aflpa, afl etc) QC's advice to really understand the various aspects and how senior legal minds might perceive the evidence differently. I wonder how many players have invested the time and money in such a process or whether they've jumped at the first lawyer who told them what they want to hear.

AFL lawyers would've billed multi millions, same with the aflpa and more with Essendon and then 34 players, Hird multiple-multiple times, Robbinson, Dank and his alleged 50 defamation actions who need lawyers each - so another 50 lots with QCs too. Then the Federal Court actions for all again. Then that appeal. Then the AFL tribunal process. Then the ASADA process. Then defence to WADA and CAS. Now 34 potential appeals each with Australian and Swiss legal teams, barristers in each country. That's all before the actions against the club by the 34 players and leaving aside Essendon defending-pleading the Work-safe case and being ordered to pay both sides legal bills. And forgetting legal expenses of injunctions, court costs, briefings, barristerial advice. For ease I won't include ASADA legal bills, advice, representation, legal report writing and high level legal submissions.

Leaving aside the financial penalties courts may impose, this saga will likely generate $30,000,000 to $100,000,000 just for the lawyers retained by everyone win, lose or draw. Forget the tens of millions in clogging Australian courts and judges. Then the kicker, most of the legal fees will be business expenses and personally tax deductible so the Australian taxpayers will be in effect funding more than 50% of the these costs. Leaving aside that payouts to Hird and others would've been paid out at 33% tax rates as ETPs to the limits and not the full top marginal tax rates.

And we've gone really nowhere in 3 years as a sport because we've been stuck on this, and this appeal means at least another 12 months. Really, someone just needs to calmly say 'enough already'. But it probably won't be lawyers with much due respect to them.

[Twodogs]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

Also interesting, Essendon has been signing up top up players to replace suspended players, presumably on good enough money. If the suspended players take injunctions to play the Essendon senior playing list will be well over 50 players and be millions of dollars over the salary cap, plus upgraded rookies need their pay topped up. If the top up players then get dumped and if they've lost income from passing up coaching, playing in other leagues etc, then they have a very simple breach of contract and Trade Practices Act law suit against Essendon worth millions and millions potentially.

When your in quick sand the harder you thrash, the worse your situation. But lawyers everywhere rejoicing in the cash that will be floating around even further and longer.

There would be a clause in their contracts that voids them if for whatever reason the original players were available.

This appeal was always on the cards. I've been saying since the judgement that they should appeal. There are so many faults in the judgement the players will win.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

There would be a clause in their contracts that voids them if for whatever reason the original players were available.

This appeal was always on the cards. I've been saying since the judgement that they should appeal. There are so many faults in the judgement the players will win.

You may be right, but I would have strong doubts. This is not criminal law.

It would be a hollow victory anyway as it will drag on for at least another season, with a real possibility of failure.
Even if they are successful, it will not restore their reputation.

The general public (or at least those I have discussion with) do not believe they are innocent. Some genuinely feel they have been wronged by the football club and Essendon have admitted fault at WorkCover.

[LostDoggy]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

You may be right, but I would have strong doubts. This is not criminal law.

It would be a hollow victory anyway as it will drag on for at least another season, with a real possibility of failure.
Even if they are successful, it will not restore their reputation.

The general public (or at least those I have discussion with) do not believe they are innocent. Some genuinely feel they have been wronged by the football club and Essendon have admitted fault at WorkCover.

I think this is a very good point. The players (or at least their representatives) are not necessarily trying to establish innocence, just claiming that the process that found them guilty was faulty.

Right or wrong, even if they establish this and, effectively, get off on a technicality (in the eyes of the public), the lawyers will have done their job and the players may be free to play, but the weight they carry will only be heavier.

If they do appeal, allowing the players to play this year pending the outcome, Essendon will still be rubbish and the other players will still have the outcome hanging over their heads and will have missed a big chunk of their preseason - their years are unlikely to be of high quality.

Aside from what is best for the game and those broader interests, I think for the players themselves, and therefore for the clubs they represent, it's in everybody's long term interest to cop their whack and move on.

[Twodogs]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

You may be right, but I would have strong doubts. This is not criminal law.

It would be a hollow victory anyway as it will drag on for at least another season, with a real possibility of failure.
Even if they are successful, it will not restore their reputation.

The general public (or at least those I have discussion with) do not believe they are innocent. Some genuinely feel they have been wronged by the football club and Essendon have admitted fault at WorkCover.

In the end it doesn't matter what the general public think, what matters is what can be proved and nothing has been proved against the players so far, and as it stands nothing has been proven.

Why aren't the principals based on criminal law. They should be. The players were investigated, A prosecuting authority charged them and they were dragged in front of a court which then handed down a punitive punishment. Which part of that isn't based on a criminal trial.

And I don't think t would be a hollow victory. WADA must be destroyed. We need an anti dooing authority but not this one, with their American inspired "whatever it takes" attitude to getting the bad guy. WADA are doing more harm than good with their schoolyard bully approach to their task. It's a corrupt, self serving organisation that, at the very least needs root and branch reform.

If you lay down with dogs then you get up with fleas. Are you happy that WADA misrepresented the truth regarding the actions of the players several times in an attempt to make them look worse at the CAS appeal? I'm certainly not. If we are going to punish people then let's do it on established fact and not on prosecutorial furphies.

Damn the torpedos. Appeal.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

In the end it doesn't matter what the general public think, what matters is what can be proved and nothing has been proved against the players so far, and as it stands nothing has been proven.

Why aren't the principals based on criminal law. They should be. The players were investigated, A prosecuting authority charged them and they were dragged in front of a court which then handed down a punitive punishment. Which part of that isn't based on a criminal trial.

And I don't think t would be a hollow victory. WADA must be destroyed. We need an anti dooing authority but not this one, with their American inspired "whatever it takes" attitude to getting the bad guy. WADA are doing more harm than good with their schoolyard bully approach to their task. It's a corrupt, self serving organisation that, at the very least needs root and branch reform.

If you lay down with dogs then you get up with fleas. Are you happy that WADA misrepresented the truth regarding the actions of the players several times in an attempt to make them look worse at the CAS appeal? I'm certainly not. If we are going to punish people then let's do it on established fact and not on prosecutorial furphies.

Damn the torpedos. Appeal.

So you are suggesting it is ok to cheat if you are very good at destroying the evidence.

I'm sorry that is not the world I want in any sphere of activity.

[ledge]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

It's pretty simple judgement .. If you take something you must have evidence of what you took . Paperwork etc if you haven't you are presumed guilty, the players are responsible and must have the paperwork, they don't, they are guilty otherwise every athlete in the world could take drugs and just lose the paperwork.
WADA doesn't care if players want to blame the club or anyone else. Fact is the athlete should have the paperwork if not your guilty.
I think it's a good rule, if these footballers don't have the evidence of what they took sayonara in my book.
Essendon cam claim whatever they want but they don't have paperwork either, I think the case was judged right, the players should be suing Essendons arse off.
Whether they didn't take banned drugs or did is not the issue the issue is you haven't got the paperwork . Therefore your guilty .
That's the way I see it and to me that's how it has to be to keep athletes honest.
Also at every test you are asked have you taken anything only one player said yes , why did they all lie ?
The club stinks and the players are certainly guilty of not having paperwork and hiding something.

[Twodogs]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

So you are suggesting it is ok to cheat if you are very good at destroying the evidence.

I'm sorry that is not the world I want in any sphere of activity.

There are other ways to poroove guilt.


I want to live in a world where if we punish someone for something then we need to be sure of their guilt. Otherwise it's a short step until the squads start pulling people out of their beds during the night.

And it's not OK for the prosecuting authority to disseminate and pull stunts with the truth.


WADA must be destroyed.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

There are other ways to poroove guilt.


I want to live in a world where if we punish someone for something then we need to be sure of their guilt. Otherwise it's a short step until the squads start pulling people out of their beds during the night.

And it's not OK for the prosecuting authority to disseminate and pull stunts with the truth.


WADA must be destroyed.

We are in total disagreement on this.