2023 List Management Thread

[bulldogtragic]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Hence my disclaimer - if we want to go that way.
IF we don't do something I can see us having the same season in 2024 and 2025 and then we will rebuild in 2026 onwards with a new coach.

Not sure I want two more years of nothingness.

This is where I see us now - at this cross road. My fear is blowing good picks for a few years before we admit it. The only way out of that predicament I see is a good cut this year and accelerated rebuild with effectively three first rounders this year. That should help the upswing up the ladder come quicker with kids like Marra, Darcy, Buss & JOD develop with the new first rounders. If there is another big trade, then say four first rounders if we nail them is a wonderful slingshot back up the ladder.

Or, we keep doing what we are doing and hope it all turns around. Maybe it does…

[bulldogtragic]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I think the new facility will be something we can sell to potential recruits.

So they can sit in it and while their careers slip away?

[Grantysghost]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

So they can sit in it and while their careers slip away?

Haha - at least they will be comfortable.

[GVGjr]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Hence my disclaimer - if we want to go that way.
IF we don't do something I can see us having the same season in 2024 and 2025 and then we will rebuild in 2026 onwards with a new coach.

Not sure I want two more years of nothingness.

It's a real tricky spot we are in. We have a playing list that probably needs for us to bring in some draftees to reinvigorate it but we are coming off a trading period that had a top up philosophy.
If we limp into the finals again and don't get a win then we probably need to become draft focused and look for a quick bounce.

[GVGjr]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I think the new facility will be something we can sell to potential recruits.

It could be a selling point for a year or two but is there that much difference between what nearly all clubs have?

[Grantysghost]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

It could be a selling point for a year or two but is there that much difference between what nearly all clubs have?

Probably be the best facility for a while. I can't see it not being enticing?

Players like shiny things right.

[angelopetraglia]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

We had eight players under 50 games last night.

West.
Vanda.
Marra.
McNeil.
Garcia.
Darcy.
JOD.
Poulter.

Which are those are going to play 200 games and be influential players in the game?

Marra
Darcy

I don't have faith any of the others actually making it. That is a massive issue. Our young talent is not up to it.

[whythelongface]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Outside on money, how do we attract players?

Because of Bevo and his ruck philosophy, guys like Meek & Ceglar passed on us. So we can?t attract a good ruck.

Then look at Lobb. We were playing on the wing to little to no effect this year. Is that what players want for their careers to thrust into positions they?ve never played. Now Lobb is playing VFL in his first year with us.

If you?re a midfielder then you look at Bailey Smith and say if he?s not getting a game, then I?m stuck behind them and him. I want opportunities and they?re not at the dogs.

We are not going to win a flag anytime soon, we?ve got mental scarring, you can play at Ballarat and in front of 60 people against the likes of Freo, and we are an old list. A part from offering more money, I?m not sure what we are offering generally to prospective players. If players don?t want to trade here, then we have to hit the draft and force them here.

I respectfully disagree. We are still in a strong window. We have a really strong core of players that are mostly quite young. In fact our KP talent is remarkable (better than it has ever been). What we need to do is build our team around this and bring in some serious midfield talent - no reason we can?t. It may take the likes of trading some fringe players as well as one or two top players to bring in some needs. Don?t think there is a need for a complete rebuild but more a ?mini rebuild? that provides us with a genuine opportunity in two to three years.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Probably be the best facility for a while. I can't see it not being enticing?

Players like shiny things right.

Would that have changed Ceglar or Meek’s decision?

I would guess the players look at not getting games in the ruck or midfield and then rotating door the others get forced into. That recent trades of club leading goal kickers are both playing VFL as a defender and part time winger. Do they want this for their career?

Clubs that fringe players go to and turn into serious players are clubs I would want to go to. That’s not us recently. With a strong minded senior coach, rucks have avoided us like the plague and so will mids who could come here, and end up on a flank fighting with other mids to play out of position and VFL.

I wouldn’t care too much about training facilities. Looking from the outside, unless I’m only about the dollars, coming here is a big risk to your career outside of maybe being a KPD. Even still, an invite into Bevo’s office and who knows how your career fades to black.

I mean, I love the club. But if I had choices, I wouldn’t choose to play here. Facilities or not. I just couldn’t trust my future looking at recent things.

[azabob]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

It's a real tricky spot we are in. We have a playing list that probably needs for us to bring in some draftees to reinvigorate it but we are coming off a trading period that had a top up philosophy.
If we limp into the finals again and don't get a win then we probably need to become draft focused and look for a quick bounce.

I'm actually fairly confident of a quick bounce if we draft the right midfielders.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I respectfully disagree. We are still in a strong window. We have a really strong core of players that are mostly quite young. In fact our KP talent is remarkable (better than it has ever been). What we need to do is build our team around this and bring in some serious midfield talent - no reason we can?t. It may take the likes of trading some fringe players as well as one or two top players to bring in some needs. Don?t think there is a need for a complete rebuild but more a ?mini rebuild? that provides us with a genuine opportunity in two to three years.

It’s a Rorshack test for sure. What are we going to do with these serious midfield talents? Bailey Smith can’t get a game in the midfield.

Libba can only play there. Do we pay Treloar $600,000 to be a flanker? Pay Bont a $1M to be a third tall? Macrae & Daniel are only part midfield players as it is. West & Garcia and other mids will never get in there. So what are we doing assuming we can get these serious mids to the club?

Which two good players need to be traded out, and what can we get for them? Ie can you give me some names of our players going and some names of players coming in? It might help me understand beyond the concept. For example, the Hun effectively said trade Bailey Smith for a pick and use that pick on Barass.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I respectfully disagree. We are still in a strong window. We have a really strong core of players that are mostly quite young. In fact our KP talent is remarkable (better than it has ever been). What we need to do is build our team around this and bring in some serious midfield talent - no reason we can?t. It may take the likes of trading some fringe players as well as one or two top players to bring in some needs. Don?t think there is a need for a complete rebuild but more a ?mini rebuild? that provides us with a genuine opportunity in two to three years.

Second set of questions:

Will these mids help with our I50’s and Overall goal kicking accuracy?
Will they stop the easy transitions Opponents make from f50?
Will they clamp down on the likes of Gulden doing as they will?
Will they tag at all?
Will they help arrest giving up 7 of 8 goal runs from the opposition?
Will they makes other highly paid mids less effective by forcing them out of the midfield?
Will they ensure West, Garcia and other mids never get a shot and do we need to move them on?
Will they improve our clearances and contested possessions - or are they more outside?
Will they make the game plan more effective?
Will they be ok, if Bevo decides they’re better pockets or flankers and not mids as they don’t do enough of what he wants?

[GVGjr]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I respectfully disagree. We are still in a strong window. We have a really strong core of players that are mostly quite young. In fact our KP talent is remarkable (better than it has ever been). What we need to do is build our team around this and bring in some serious midfield talent - no reason we can?t. It may take the likes of trading some fringe players as well as one or two top players to bring in some needs. Don?t think there is a need for a complete rebuild but more a ?mini rebuild? that provides us with a genuine opportunity in two to three years.

While I tend to agree our performances are indicating that the strength we have had isn't quite working. It could be selection integrity or player development that is costing us and potentially a list with too many average players but looking forward I think there are genuine concerns that we don't have enough quality players coming through.

[jeemak]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

While I tend to agree our performances are indicating that the strength we have had isn't quite working. It could be selection integrity or player development that is costing us and potentially a list with too many average players but looking forward I think there are genuine concerns that we don't have enough quality players coming through.

We definitely have a quality issue, that's been exacerbated by some injuries to the likes of Bedendo and Garcia in their formative years. Our talent identification needs to really step up and make the most of whatever capital we have this year.

[lemmon]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

We had eight players under 50 games last night.

West.
Vanda.
Marra.
McNeil.
Garcia.
Darcy.
JOD.
Poulter.

Which are those are going to play 200 games and be influential players in the game?

Marra
Darcy

I don't have faith any of the others actually making it. That is a massive issue. Our young talent is not up to it.

I think another factor is having some of these young guys spend too long in positions they aren't natural in as well, outside of just their talent.

West, McNeil and Garcia were all inside midfielders at junior level who have played predominantly forward because they bring some speed and a willingness to get their hands dirty. I don't think that's anyone's fault - we've lacked natural small forwards and have had a stacked midfield, but I think it does have something to do with the lack of development we're seeing now.

Laith is another one - a half-back/outside runner at junior level who played pressure small forward because he's quick and that's where we needed him. Would he be a better player now if he had played predominantly at half back? Probably. Was it the right decision asking him to play a role forward because it's what the team needed? Who knows.

These are all guys drafted out of the first round that have come into a good side so there's a huge layer of them having to try and fit into us, rather than the other way around. But I think some of the stagnation we're seeing is as much about development as it is about talent.