2023 List Management Thread

[mjp]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Has the midfield coach stuffed up? We have brought in Lade and maybe he has changed things and it ain't working

That's the thing though...the 'MIDFIELD' is putting up numbers and seems to be going great. But when you sit back and watch - I was lucky last night, at training when the game was on so watched pretty much without emotion after the result was known - you have to wonder if it is at the expense of 'TEAM'.

I'm projecting here and not for a second suggesting that those putting up the numbers are chasing stats (I 100% don't think Bont is) - but he IS clearly desperate to put his stamp on things and lead the way...the problem is right now I think everyone is seeing this and feels that (maybe) they can't live up to expectations/whatever...

We won the flag with Easton Wood - 18-months out of the reserves - leading the way. We won the flag with a heap of players coming off injury and determined just to play their part. We won the flag with players off the rookie list desperate to prove they belonged and happy to chase, tackle and scrag their way into the team.

Now? If Bont is around, doesn't that mean no-one else has to do it? If Liber is there, wont he be the one to get it? Are we really playing 18-players alive type footy or is it 8-players alive and the rest along for the ride uncertain of their roles and where they fit?

And this doesn't mean I'm saying Bont isn't leading well...but something is clearly wrong and why are players seemingly going backwards and not taking the game on, not challenging the oppo with their skills and their legs...

I'm not sure - and I have fallen into this trap a bit lately - we have decided that some players aren't good enough/we need a bit refresh...we were good enough last night and good enough vs Collingwood but 'something' is missing.

Anyway, I'll shut up now.

[Bornadog]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

That's the thing though...the 'MIDFIELD' is putting up numbers and seems to be going great. But when you sit back and watch - I was lucky last night, at training when the game was on so watched pretty much without emotion after the result was known - you have to wonder if it is at the expense of 'TEAM'.

I'm projecting here and not for a second suggesting that those putting up the numbers are chasing stats (I 100% don't think Bont is) - but he IS clearly desperate to put his stamp on things and lead the way...the problem is right now I think everyone is seeing this and feels that (maybe) they can't live up to expectations/whatever...

We won the flag with Easton Wood - 18-months out of the reserves - leading the way. We won the flag with a heap of players coming off injury and determined just to play their part. We won the flag with players off the rookie list desperate to prove they belonged and happy to chase, tackle and scrag their way into the team.

Now? If Bont is around, doesn't that mean no-one else has to do it? If Liber is there, wont he be the one to get it? Are we really playing 18-players alive type footy or is it 8-players alive and the rest along for the ride uncertain of their roles and where they fit?

And this doesn't mean I'm saying Bont isn't leading well...but something is clearly wrong and why are players seemingly going backwards and not taking the game on, not challenging the oppo with their skills and their legs...

I'm not sure - and I have fallen into this trap a bit lately - we have decided that some players aren't good enough/we need a bit refresh...we were good enough last night and good enough vs Collingwood but 'something' is missing.

Anyway, I'll shut up now.

I like this point of view and it is something the coaches have to take on and think about, because, as you say, the mids are getting a heap of the ball, but they can't do it all. I like the way Collingwood is playing, ie as a team effort and not just relying on one or two players like we do.

[GVGjr]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I totally get your comment (Macrae) but we have 100% 'skinnied' up our mids mix every year. I heard a Champion Data employee spruiking a while back about the role of 'mid forward' that he claimed we had 'invented' during 2015/16 where we had 12+ players rolling through the forward/mid mix. We simply don't do that anymore and (to be fair) it can be quite tricky to orchestrate. The players really need to drive it - it's hard to get a runner on the field and S&C would largely control rotations - so you generally run rotations as follows:

2x Defensive talls playing 90% + game time.
5x small/medium defenders who will size and shape.
4x rucks/talls forward of the ball.
3-4 mids rolling outside (sorry, wing) and half forward.
4-5 mids rolling inside with the potential for one to spit forward.
2-3 medium forwards.
1-small forward (I doubt we play this rn).

You're sort of in ONE rotation or your in another...and whilst you might slip and slide once the 20-min mark rolls around because of fatigue, injury or specific defensive match-ups, well, that's not gonna stick past the break.

Anyway, back to the Champion Data guy - he basically said the role designation was created in their system to account for the way the Dogs set up 'back then' but was basically 'done' and no-players in the system were hitting the requirements for that designation during 2023 (more than 35% in each position).

When I look at things, the coaches clearly appreciate that 'something' is wrong with our mids despite some of the numbers we see post pretty much every game. We have not had a lot of continuity with our mids all year - with Bont and Liber being primarily 'IN' and accompanied at various times by Macrae, Smith, Daniel, Treloar - outside we have had Baker, Williams, Poulter etc...even Lobb had a go for goodness sake. The mix is constantly being changed so they are clearly searching for something. Trialling Weightman in their pre-season was another sign that no matter what the outside sees (big names like Bont, Liber, Treloar, positive clearance numbers and massive disposal numbers) not all is well...they are clearly searching for 'SOMETHING'...what is that something? Goodness knows but I think a lot of posters on here sense it as well. Whether it is instruction-based or connection-based, the team isn't playing to it's 'potential' (which is a crap word I know) and therefore things are continually being tweaked, twisted and pulled apart.

I read a lot of comments that by losing Dunkley at the end of last year it would fix up our midfield rotations when it reality I think it has left a gaping hole. As you point out in 2016 we out rotated teams with our mix of versatile mids who were effective when played forward and we now have more of a set-up where our elite mids are either on the field or on the bench and most aren't spending much time forward.

[chef]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I dont feel comfortable going into rebuild mode with Bont in the middle of his prime.

[GVGjr]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I dont feel comfortable going into rebuild mode with Bont in the middle of his prime.

While I tend to agree with this logic if I assume a gun midfielder is in their prime from the ages of 23 to 29 it probably means Bont has passed the middle of his prime.

[FrediKanoute]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I read a lot of comments that by losing Dunkley at the end of last year it would fix up our midfield rotations when it reality I think it has left a gaping hole. As you point out in 2016 we out rotated teams with our mix of versatile mids who were effective when played forward and we now have more of a set-up where our elite mids are either on the field or on the bench and most aren't spending much time forward.

And we are sticking guys into the forward line who are limited in their goalsense and ability.

[mjp]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I read a lot of comments that by losing Dunkley at the end of last year it would fix up our midfield rotations when it reality I think it has left a gaping hole.

Well - you're not wrong that losing Dunkley has left a hole...but isn't it interesting that one of the things you highlight as a 'positive' about the Dunkley experience (ability to play forward) is also one of the reasons he left (didn't want to spend time forward and has been open in sharing that with his new team-mates).

There is no doubt that we are not a balanced team these days - in terms of match day contribution - and too much is left to a small number of players...but it is also true that those players who 'dominate' possession really dominate and not many others even get a chance to get involved. I'm not sure what the answer is...it would take a set made of cast iron for the coaches to reduce the midfield time of Bont, Liber, Treloar and Daniel in what has basically become a must-win game against the Bombers...if supporters look down and see Garcia, West and Weightman in at a CBD and we lose it, well, what is currently a shifting current against the coach will become a tidal wave...

Should the coach care? Well - I would. Should he do it anyway? I think something has to change and based on what the MC have been doing all season I think they know it does as well...

[GVGjr]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Well - you're not wrong that losing Dunkley has left a hole...but isn't it interesting that one of the things you highlight as a 'positive' about the Dunkley experience (ability to play forward) is also one of the reasons he left (didn't want to spend time forward and has been open in sharing that with his new team-mates).

I think many people thought that losing Dunkley would have resulted in a greater rotation for players through the middle and the likes of Smith and Treloar would benefit by that. We've stopped using Treloar of half back so that seems to have worked but Smith hasn't logged as many minutes in a centre bounce set-ups as you might expect and Macrae has just about been replaced by Daniel.

Losing Dunkley doesn't appear to have opened up the spread of players for our centre bounce set-up like we might have thought.

I wonder if we run the risk that Bailey Smith will come to the same conclusion as Dunks did about not spending enough time in the middle?

[Grantysghost]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Plus the mids have been winning most kpis.
I'd love to see some different faces in there.

West, Smith, Macrae start with that! (never happen)

[azabob]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I think many people thought that losing Dunkley would have resulted in a greater rotation for players through the middle and the likes of Smith and Treloar would benefit by that. We've stopped using Treloar of half back so that seems to have worked but Smith hasn't logged as many minutes in a centre bounce set-ups as you might expect and Macrae has just about been replaced by Daniel.

Losing Dunkley doesn't appear to have opened up the spread of players for our centre bounce set-up like we might have thought.

I wonder if we run the risk that Bailey Smith will come to the same conclusion as Dunks did about not spending enough time in the middle?

If you believe the scuttlebutt Smith already has come to that conclusion. I’m also concerned his manger is Paul Connors who had the know how and influence to get stuff done.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Thanks mjp for a great post.

The issue of players not enjoying the game probably highlights our issues.

Is there too much structure they are trying to adhere to?

All the list management suggestions around rebuild or top up become irrelevant if the coach won't play certain individuals.

Increasingly I believe the rebuild needs to be in the coaching.

Get a new coaching team and let the players enjoy the game with a game plan suited to the list.

[mjp]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Plus the mids have been winning most kpis.

So there's some 'trust the process' stuff there right?

KPI's (stats by any other name) are truly dangerous things because they (at best) tell you only part of the story. And sometimes POSITIVE numbers are actually part of the problem because you "don't want to mess with what's working"....I mean, if the midfield KPI's are good, then why would you want to change the midfield.

Think of it this way. If we were to tag Merrett next week (lol in itself) but stay with me. If we were to tag Merrett and at half time he had registered only 5x possessions - but Essendon were up by 6-goals - is the tag working or not? The same applies to contested possession stats, clearances, tackle numbers etc. For most numbers, the key isn't to be WINNING them - but more to be 'around the mark'...you know, our pressure is up, our effort is high. We're hitting our kick-handball ratio numbers, our uncontested marks/hbr/lbgs are around the mark...what do you really need to do that is > break even in the 'numbers'?

The win loss stuff? That's going to come on the back of effort (where you need to break even) + your game style/player makeup...

[Bornadog]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I still think that with the change of midfield coach (Lade in) things have changed too much in the middle and we are no longer winning centre clearances - gone from number 1 last year to 14th.

This needs to be addressed urgently.

[Grantysghost]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I still think that with the change of midfield coach (Lade in) things have changed too much in the middle and we are no longer winning centre clearances - gone from number 1 last year to 14th.

This needs to be addressed urgently.

Wow didn't know that.

That's not good.

[Mofra]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I still think that with the change of midfield coach (Lade in) things have changed too much in the middle and we are no longer winning centre clearances - gone from number 1 last year to 14th.

This needs to be addressed urgently.

Overall we're second for clearances

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_team_rankings

Not sure about centre clearances specifically.

Surprisingly, we're 16th for clangers. Disturbingly, we're 16th for rebound 50s