2023 List Management Thread

[whythelongface]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

While I tend to agree our performances are indicating that the strength we have had isn't quite working. It could be selection integrity or player development that is costing us and potentially a list with too many average players but looking forward I think there are genuine concerns that we don't have enough quality players coming through.

Agree and hence we need some injection of quality midfielders. I don’t know who or where from but we need to go in hard and make enquires about some top end talent. Others have alluded to the fact that they may not get opportunities with us. A reasonable assumption however we did bring in Treloar and he has had ample oppprtuniites in the mids. The fact that we have a talented forward line plus we get the hands on the pill plenty should be enough to entice some high end talent. Again no idea whom is available or keen to switch clubs but we need to pick up a player like a Horne-Francis.

[Grantysghost]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

We've got a two time AA midfielder we don't play in the midfield
Rarely mentioned this change, however I think it's an interesting discussion point.
I get putting Treloar in the role of Dunkley but am really surprised that Macrae has been totally removed from rotations.

[azabob]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

We've got a two time AA midfielder we don't play in the midfield
Rarely mentioned this change, however I think it's an interesting discussion point.

Was it a decision that came down to Liberatore V Macrae? Clearly we needed pace through the middle and that came down to Treloar V Smith.

Do you really think that playing Macrae in the middle would have changed our season?

[jeemak]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

We've got a two time AA midfielder we don't play in the midfield
Rarely mentioned this change, however I think it's an interesting discussion point.
I get putting Treloar in the role of Dunkley but am really surprised that Macrae has been totally removed from rotations.

Aza wants to trade him for a third rounder!

[Mantis]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

We've got a two time AA midfielder we don't play in the midfield
Rarely mentioned this change, however I think it's an interesting discussion point.
I get putting Treloar in the role of Dunkley but am really surprised that Macrae has been totally removed from rotations.

He's just like the rest of our mids... he doesn't defend, has no leg speed and whilst he accumulates lots of touches he has limited hurt value.

We need some players with a POD in the midfield group.

[EasternWest]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Aza wants to trade him for a third rounder!

Bloody aza

[Grantysghost]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

He's just like the rest of our mids... he doesn't defend, has no leg speed and whilst he accumulates lots of touches he has limited hurt value.

We need some players with a POD in the midfield group.

Problem is, Treloar playing inside doesn't really utilise his pace and his dump kicks are costly.
Macrae, especially over the last few seasons has become more damaging by foot into fifty.

I don't mind mixing it up, not sure about complete removal.

Would I prefer Treloar or Macrae as a forward?

Treloar probably.

So is Macrae doing enough damage as a forward?

Probably not.

It's a tricky one, I feel like he doesn't really have a place from where he can contribute to the best of his ability at the moment.


I get we are trying to get him to push up to the contest etc however it's rare to remove a 2x AA mid from your rotations and play him somewhere he's not really suited to.

[Grantysghost]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Was it a decision that came down to Liberatore V Macrae? Clearly we needed pace through the middle and that came down to Treloar V Smith.

Do you really think that playing Macrae in the middle would have changed our season?

Maybe he's pretty good. He'd hit that target last night at the end for eg.

I'm ok with Treloar in there just surprised Macrae isn't part of the rotations.

[Mofra]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

We had eight players under 50 games last night.

West.
Vanda.
Marra.
McNeil.
Garcia.
Darcy.
JOD.
Poulter.

Which are those are going to play 200 games and be influential players in the game?

Marra
Darcy

I don't have faith any of the others actually making it. That is a massive issue. Our young talent is not up to it.

Someone like 7% of players play 200 games.
It's an incredibly high benchmark to set

[lemmon]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Maybe he's pretty good. He'd hit that target last night at the end for eg.

I'm ok with Treloar in there just surprised Macrae isn't part of the rotations.

Happy to be proven wrong here, but my recollection is that Jack was moved out of the middle after he was ineffectual towards the end of last year and in the first few rounds of this season. Outside of last night, I think he's been pretty good in that hybrid half-forward role.

Interestingly, Macrae's CBA attendances are still pretty high this year - he's fifth at the club after English (86%), Bont (82%), Libba (78%), Treloar (74%) then Macrae at 36%. These numbers don't take into account last night's game.

That is down from 2022 and 2021 where he attended more than 60% of CBAs.

Another question though, do we roll enough guys through there? Collingwood only has one player that has attended more than 70% of CBAs (De Goey) versus our four. Brisbane have three players (Neale, McInerney and Dunkley) but after them it's a very even spread with no one else attending more than 50%.

Libba probably has to be an 85% CBA attendance player because that's his bread and butter, but could we be finding better ways to spread the load more evenly and allow a Bailey Smith or a Rhylee West to impact the game? Is it why we have a huge stoppage dominance early that is gradually eroded over the course of the game - these guys are getting worn down and worked out as the game goes on?

[mjp]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Maybe he's pretty good. He'd hit that target last night at the end for eg.

I'm ok with Treloar in there just surprised Macrae isn't part of the rotations.

I totally get your comment (Macrae) but we have 100% 'skinnied' up our mids mix every year. I heard a Champion Data employee spruiking a while back about the role of 'mid forward' that he claimed we had 'invented' during 2015/16 where we had 12+ players rolling through the forward/mid mix. We simply don't do that anymore and (to be fair) it can be quite tricky to orchestrate. The players really need to drive it - it's hard to get a runner on the field and S&C would largely control rotations - so you generally run rotations as follows:

2x Defensive talls playing 90% + game time.
5x small/medium defenders who will size and shape.
4x rucks/talls forward of the ball.
3-4 mids rolling outside (sorry, wing) and half forward.
4-5 mids rolling inside with the potential for one to spit forward.
2-3 medium forwards.
1-small forward (I doubt we play this rn).

You're sort of in ONE rotation or your in another...and whilst you might slip and slide once the 20-min mark rolls around because of fatigue, injury or specific defensive match-ups, well, that's not gonna stick past the break.

Anyway, back to the Champion Data guy - he basically said the role designation was created in their system to account for the way the Dogs set up 'back then' but was basically 'done' and no-players in the system were hitting the requirements for that designation during 2023 (more than 35% in each position).

When I look at things, the coaches clearly appreciate that 'something' is wrong with our mids despite some of the numbers we see post pretty much every game. We have not had a lot of continuity with our mids all year - with Bont and Liber being primarily 'IN' and accompanied at various times by Macrae, Smith, Daniel, Treloar - outside we have had Baker, Williams, Poulter etc...even Lobb had a go for goodness sake. The mix is constantly being changed so they are clearly searching for something. Trialling Weightman in their pre-season was another sign that no matter what the outside sees (big names like Bont, Liber, Treloar, positive clearance numbers and massive disposal numbers) not all is well...they are clearly searching for 'SOMETHING'...what is that something? Goodness knows but I think a lot of posters on here sense it as well. Whether it is instruction-based or connection-based, the team isn't playing to it's 'potential' (which is a crap word I know) and therefore things are continually being tweaked, twisted and pulled apart.

I recall seeing a post a couple of days ago in the aftermath of the Collingwood defeat along the lines of "If anyone is criticising Liber and Bont rn they are on the wrong train 'cos those two have been EPIC". Which isn't wrong. But if we have (as everyone keeps telling me) English playing at an AA level, Bont playing at an AA level and Liber playing at an AA level...then why don't we win more games?

If you think back (way, way back) to the 2016 grand final, Bont had 22 and Liber had 22. If you look at the 2021 gf (we lost I know but stay with me for a second) Bont had 25 and Liber had 23. Last night Liber had 30+, Bont had 30+...but we had 7x players with 10 or less. In the 2021 GF we had 4x with less than 10. In the 2016 GF we had just 2x with less than 10 (both key defenders Hamling and Fletcher).

Admittedly last night O'Donnell and Darcy were both injured with less than 10 which throws the numbers out a little bit.

What's my point? Goodness knows I guess aside from saying that more isn't necessarily better. Yes - Bont and Liber are playing well but would we be better off with them playing LESS time inside and sharing a few of those possessions with some of the lesser lights, keeping them engaged and involved and generally making footy more 'fun' for everyone. 'Cos watching last night - and the pressure and anguish was obvious on the faces of the players and coaches throughout - having a different focus for a while, having some actual FUN and enjoying playing footy together would seriously not go astray. And if the 'big dogs' (Bont/Liber/Treloar) keep getting pushed inside because either THEY don't trust the others or the coaches don't trust the others, well...that's a BIG PROBLEM. If you think the other players don't feel it, well, you haven't been paying attention to the body language/tension that was so apparent last week and last night.

I read a comment above that McNeil prob wouldn't make 200-games because he was too fumbly. Well...he wasn't when he first came into the side. Then I watched him miss a 20m goal vs the Pies - he is a BEAUTIFUL kick of the footy. Something is up. We're all talking about mechanics and find this mid, that mid, this miracle cure...none of that is going to solve it. Where is the group that used to dance in the darkened change rooms after a game? Where are those guys? Where are the players who used to play because they WANTED too vs HAD too? Well - if we can find those blokes, we might be onto something...'cos the pressure of trying to live up to expectation is literally strangling the group running around out there right now.

Take the 8-days off. Go surfing. Go abseiling. Go SOMEWHERE. Get out of Melbourne and do something FUN and something that puts you out of your comfort zone 'cos you DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT and are just forced to be a beginner for at least an hour or two. Don't worry about the review or previewing the Bombers. Have a kick in the park with your mates then get set and come back to the club late in the week...back to basics, fun, dancing in the dark...and most of all, SHARING THE LOAD.

[Grantysghost]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Happy to be proven wrong here, but my recollection is that Jack was moved out of the middle after he was ineffectual towards the end of last year and in the first few rounds of this season. Outside of last night, I think he's been pretty good in that hybrid half-forward role.

Interestingly, Macrae's CBA attendances are still pretty high this year - he's fifth at the club after English (86%), Bont (82%), Libba (78%), Treloar (74%) then Macrae at 36%. These numbers don't take into account last night's game.

That is down from 2022 and 2021 where he attended more than 60% of CBAs.

Another question though, do we roll enough guys through there? Collingwood only has one player that has attended more than 70% of CBAs (De Goey) versus our four. Brisbane have three players (Neale, McInerney and Dunkley) but after them it's a very even spread with no one else attending more than 50%.

Libba probably has to be an 85% CBA attendance player because that's his bread and butter, but could we be finding better ways to spread the load more evenly and allow a Bailey Smith or a Rhylee West to impact the game? Is it why we have a huge stoppage dominance early that is gradually eroded over the course of the game - these guys are getting worn down and worked out as the game goes on?

Last two weeks Macrae has had 0 CBAs. Not sure why.

[Bornadog]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I totally get your comment (Macrae) but we have 100% 'skinnied' up our mids mix every year. I heard a Champion Data employee spruiking a while back about the role of 'mid forward' that he claimed we had 'invented' during 2015/16 where we had 12+ players rolling through the forward/mid mix. We simply don't do that anymore and (to be fair) it can be quite tricky to orchestrate. The players really need to drive it - it's hard to get a runner on the field and S&C would largely control rotations - so you generally run rotations as follows:

2x Defensive talls playing 90% + game time.
5x small/medium defenders who will size and shape.
4x rucks/talls forward of the ball.
3-4 mids rolling outside (sorry, wing) and half forward.
4-5 mids rolling inside with the potential for one to spit forward.
2-3 medium forwards.
1-small forward (I doubt we play this rn).

You're sort of in ONE rotation or your in another...and whilst you might slip and slide once the 20-min mark rolls around because of fatigue, injury or specific defensive match-ups, well, that's not gonna stick past the break.

Anyway, back to the Champion Data guy - he basically said the role designation was created in their system to account for the way the Dogs set up 'back then' but was basically 'done' and no-players in the system were hitting the requirements for that designation during 2023 (more than 35% in each position).

When I look at things, the coaches clearly appreciate that 'something' is wrong with our mids despite some of the numbers we see post pretty much every game. We have not had a lot of continuity with our mids all year - with Bont and Liber being primarily 'IN' and accompanied at various times by Macrae, Smith, Daniel, Treloar - outside we have had Baker, Williams, Poulter etc...even Lobb had a go for goodness sake. The mix is constantly being changed so they are clearly searching for something. Trialling Weightman in their pre-season was another sign that no matter what the outside sees (big names like Bont, Liber, Treloar, positive clearance numbers and massive disposal numbers) not all is well...they are clearly searching for 'SOMETHING'...what is that something? Goodness knows but I think a lot of posters on here sense it as well. Whether it is instruction-based or connection-based, the team isn't playing to it's 'potential' (which is a crap word I know) and therefore things are continually being tweaked, twisted and pulled apart.

I recall seeing a post a couple of days ago in the aftermath of the Collingwood defeat along the lines of "If anyone is criticising Liber and Bont rn they are on the wrong train 'cos those two have been EPIC". Which isn't wrong. But if we have (as everyone keeps telling me) English playing at an AA level, Bont playing at an AA level and Liber playing at an AA level...then why don't we win more games?

If you think back (way, way back) to the 2016 grand final, Bont had 22 and Liber had 22. If you look at the 2021 gf (we lost I know but stay with me for a second) Bont had 25 and Liber had 23. Last night Liber had 30+, Bont had 30+...but we had 7x players with 10 or less. In the 2021 GF we had 4x with less than 10. In the 2016 GF we had just 2x with less than 10 (both key defenders Hamling and Fletcher).

Admittedly last night O'Donnell and Darcy were both injured with less than 10 which throws the numbers out a little bit.

What's my point? Goodness knows I guess aside from saying that more isn't necessarily better. Yes - Bont and Liber are playing well but would we be better off with them playing LESS time inside and sharing a few of those possessions with some of the lesser lights, keeping them engaged and involved and generally making footy more 'fun' for everyone. 'Cos watching last night - and the pressure and anguish was obvious on the faces of the players and coaches throughout - having a different focus for a while, having some actual FUN and enjoying playing footy together would seriously not go astray. And if the 'big dogs' (Bont/Liber/Treloar) keep getting pushed inside because either THEY don't trust the others or the coaches don't trust the others, well...that's a BIG PROBLEM. If you think the other players don't feel it, well, you haven't been paying attention to the body language/tension that was so apparent last week and last night.

I read a comment above that McNeil prob wouldn't make 200-games because he was too fumbly. Well...he wasn't when he first came into the side. Then I watched him miss a 20m goal vs the Pies - he is a BEAUTIFUL kick of the footy. Something is up. We're all talking about mechanics and find this mid, that mid, this miracle cure...none of that is going to solve it. Where is the group that used to dance in the darkened change rooms after a game? Where are those guys? Where are the players who used to play because they WANTED too vs HAD too? Well - if we can find those blokes, we might be onto something...'cos the pressure of trying to live up to expectation is literally strangling the group running around out there right now.

Take the 8-days off. Go surfing. Go abseiling. Go SOMEWHERE. Get out of Melbourne and do something FUN and something that puts you out of your comfort zone 'cos you DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT and are just forced to be a beginner for at least an hour or two. Don't worry about the review or previewing the Bombers. Have a kick in the park with your mates then get set and come back to the club late in the week...back to basics, fun, dancing in the dark...and most of all, SHARING THE LOAD.

Post of the year

[lemmon]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Thanks for that MJP - epic post and terrific insight into how sides structure up.

I remember Bailey Smith saying in 2021 that the midfield worked in 'pairs' - from memory they were Bont-Dunkley, Treloar-Smith and Libba-Macrae, with one of the pair playing on-ball, the other playing half forward or rotated off the ground. It also felt very obvious when you watched us at the time, there was a good balance of traits running through that midfield mix. We seem to have really gone away from that this year - the big boys play the bulk of minutes and are expected to get it done across four quarters.

[Bornadog]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Thanks for that MJP - epic post and terrific insight into how sides structure up.

I remember Bailey Smith saying in 2021 that the midfield worked in 'pairs' - from memory they were Bont-Dunkley, Treloar-Smith and Libba-Macrae, with one of the pair playing on-ball, the other playing half forward or rotated off the ground. It also felt very obvious when you watched us at the time, there was a good balance of traits running through that midfield mix. We seem to have really gone away from that this year - the big boys play the bulk of minutes and are expected to get it done across four quarters.

Has the midfield coach stuffed up? We have brought in Lade and maybe he has changed things and it ain't working