2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

[Bornadog]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

Why though?

What if you could get Lloyd Meek and Freo's first rounder...or Meek and Brennan Cox...or...Meek and one of their early picks from the last couple of years like O'Driscoll or Chapman?

I mean, getting a ruckman back would be a non-negotiable. If we could get a ruckman and a tall defender like Cox then why wouldn't we think about it? Re-signing English is going to be very expensive and maybe that money could be better used elsewhere.

I'm in the 'Keep English' camp, but we aren't talking about Barcus Montempelli here - if he wants to go home (which, when you are from a small town 4 hours from Perth is an interesting concept) - then as long as we get value what's the big deal?

I have followed the Bulldogs for a very long time and I know in that time we have not had many good talls. They are rare as hens teeth and when you have a 205cm mobile tall who can play, then you don't let them go.

If he comes to the club and says I am home sick, or I have had enough of my time here and it is genuine, then let's talk, but otherwise, for me he stays and we look after him.

[Grantysghost]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

Why though?

What if you could get Lloyd Meek and Freo's first rounder...or Meek and Brennan Cox...or...Meek and one of their early picks from the last couple of years like O'Driscoll or Chapman?

I mean, getting a ruckman back would be a non-negotiable. If we could get a ruckman and a tall defender like Cox then why wouldn't we think about it? Re-signing English is going to be very expensive and maybe that money could be better used elsewhere.

I'm in the 'Keep English' camp, but we aren't talking about Barcus Montempelli here - if he wants to go home (which, when you are from a small town 4 hours from Perth is an interesting concept) - then as long as we get value what's the big deal?

I remember this part when Tim first joined, he said he was away from home at boarding school so the go home factor didn't really apply.
Can only take him at his word and to be fair I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. Actually the contrary usually.

[GVGjr]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

Why though?

What if you could get Lloyd Meek and Freo's first rounder...or Meek and Brennan Cox...or...Meek and one of their early picks from the last couple of years like O'Driscoll or Chapman?

I mean, getting a ruckman back would be a non-negotiable. If we could get a ruckman and a tall defender like Cox then why wouldn't we think about it? Re-signing English is going to be very expensive and maybe that money could be better used elsewhere.

I'm in the 'Keep English' camp, but we aren't talking about Barcus Montempelli here - if he wants to go home (which, when you are from a small town 4 hours from Perth is an interesting concept) - then as long as we get value what's the big deal?

Just about every player is tradeable. While I'm in the 'keep English at the club' camp we need to acknowledge he is far from the finished product as a ruckman and we might need to accept that his best might be as a goodish ruckman and key forward but he may not be that strong at either position. If you could get a comparable standard ruckman and a first round pick then it's worth considering providing the player has indicated a preference to head back to WA. I still think the best scenario is to sign him and look for some ruck support.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

Why though?

What if you could get Lloyd Meek and Freo's first rounder...or Meek and Brennan Cox...or...Meek and one of their early picks from the last couple of years like O'Driscoll or Chapman?

I mean, getting a ruckman back would be a non-negotiable. If we could get a ruckman and a tall defender like Cox then why wouldn't we think about it? Re-signing English is going to be very expensive and maybe that money could be better used elsewhere.

I'm in the 'Keep English' camp, but we aren't talking about Barcus Montempelli here - if he wants to go home (which, when you are from a small town 4 hours from Perth is an interesting concept) - then as long as we get value what's the big deal?

I am absolutely of the view that almost everyone can be traded for the right price.

English as a ruckman has been disappointing, but he is very good as the unique mobile tall. We need to assess any trade option on what will make as a better team overall.

If we assess a trade will make as better for the next 5 years we do it otherwise we happily retain Tim.

[azabob]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

Why though?

What if you could get Lloyd Meek and Freo's first rounder...or Meek and Brennan Cox...or...Meek and one of their early picks from the last couple of years like O'Driscoll or Chapman?

I mean, getting a ruckman back would be a non-negotiable. If we could get a ruckman and a tall defender like Cox then why wouldn't we think about it? Re-signing English is going to be very expensive and maybe that money could be better used elsewhere.

I'm in the 'Keep English' camp, but we aren't talking about Barcus Montempelli here - if he wants to go home (which, when you are from a small town 4 hours from Perth is an interesting concept) - then as long as we get value what's the big deal?

My thoughts exactly mjp. I wouldn't be against trading him and have said that previously, I think there is major upside which we seriously need to consider.

[Happy Days]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

Trading English, who is ostensibly happy, already very good and has the most untapped potential of nearly any player in the league, seems like an unbelievable self-own that I'm not going to entertain.

Who cares if he's a sub-par ruckman? We can get a league standard ruckman the same way 90% of the other teams do. Where else are we going to find an aerially dominant, incredibly mobile and quick 207cm player with outstanding skills who can play any position on the ground except the one that we're all so hung up on for no reason? I mean really what are we doing here.

[comrade]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

Trading English, who is ostensibly happy, already very good and has the most untapped potential of nearly any player in the league, seems like an unbelievable self-own that I'm not going to entertain.

Who cares if he's a sub-par ruckman? We can get a league standard ruckman the same way 90% of the other teams do. Where else are we going to find an aerially dominant, incredibly mobile and quick 207cm player with outstanding skills who can play any position on the ground except the one that we're all so hung up on for no reason? I mean really what are we doing here.

We're having a discussion on a discussion forum, shock horror.

[Happy Days]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

We're having a discussion on a discussion forum, shock horror.

I get that but suggesting that we trade English to get a ruckman and extras is the kind of have-your-cake-and-eat-it messaging we would ruthlessly bag clubs like Essendon for putting out when they lose good players, because well actually the store brand version they brought in is just as good.

The "problem" we're faced with is very much solvable without needlessly burning assets.

[comrade]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

I get that but suggesting that we trade English to get a ruckman and extras is the kind of have-your-cake-and-eat-it messaging we would ruthlessly bag clubs like Essendon for putting out when they lose good players, because well actually the store brand version they brought in is just as good.

The "problem" we're faced with is very much solvable without needlessly burning assets.

I agree that our ruck issue is resolvable without involving English or any other playing asset, but all that was being suggested was if a club offered up a deal that was overs or resolved multiple gaps in our list (ruck and defence) we should consider it. I don’t think that’s outlandish.

[jeemak]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

I'm close to starting a Trade English thread. Just have to pick the right time.

Tend to agree that almost everyone is tradeable. English is no different. There's a chance his untapped potential remains untapped and what we have now is what we're going to get for the most part. So if we knock back a generous trade we're taking a gamble on the future and I at least would want us to consider alternatives to that future before we do.

If we get ruck cover and he becomes a forward/ second ruck what do we realistically need from someone as talented as he is in terms of output in that position? 30-40 goals a year? Do we think we'll get that from him?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

I'm close to starting a Trade English thread. Just have to pick the right time.

Tend to agree that almost everyone is tradeable. English is no different. There's a chance his untapped potential remains untapped and what we have now is what we're going to get for the most part. So if we knock back a generous trade we're taking a gamble on the future and I at least would want us to consider alternatives to that future before we do.

If we get ruck cover and he becomes a forward/ second ruck what do we realistically need from someone as talented as he is in terms of output in that position? 30-40 goals a year? Do we think we'll get that from him?

I tend to think his own output in the forward line isn't the main KPI, but rather how his being there enables the other talls to perform better. Early in the year, before Martin went down, it seemed that both Bruce and Naughton looked more dangerous with English in there than later in the year when he wasn't.

[jeemak]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

I tend to think his own output in the forward line isn't the main KPI, but rather how his being there enables the other talls to perform better. Early in the year, before Martin went down, it seemed that both Bruce and Naughton looked more dangerous with English in there than later in the year when he wasn't.

OK sure. English is going to demand a premium. Do we need to pay a premium for that sort of player or can we get someone who can ruck and help out forward at a lower price (should this player exist)?

If I'm paying $750K to $850K a year for a forward/ second ruck I'm looking for a bit more than structural benefits. I want someone who bobs up and kicks multiple goals a week.

To me the gamble is worth taking, because I think English can be that player but we need to consider that he might never be.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

OK sure. English is going to demand a premium. Do we need to pay a premium for that sort of player or can we get someone who can ruck and help out forward at a lower price (should this player exist)?

If I'm paying $750K to $850K a year for a forward/ second ruck I'm looking for a bit more than structural benefits. I want someone who bobs up and kicks multiple goals a week.

To me the gamble is worth taking, because I think English can be that player but we need to consider that he might never be.

Yep I get that, and I really would've liked to have seen a full season of English primarily up forward. But of the small sample size, I thought he showed the promise to not just be another big body, but also complement uniquely what already was looking to be a uniquely shaped forward line.
Naughts isn't just a tall. He's also so good at the ground level and with defensive pressure.
Bruce is more the archtypal structural forward.
English also is very good below his knees and has rare ball skills for a dude that stands at 205cms.

I too think it's a gamble worth continuing with, and before we consider trading a potential point of difference player out due to his ruck shortcoming, I'd like us to recruit for the 1st ruck role, and continue trying to nurture English's development in that Fwd/2nd ruck role.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

OK sure. English is going to demand a premium. Do we need to pay a premium for that sort of player or can we get someone who can ruck and help out forward at a lower price (should this player exist)?

If I'm paying $750K to $850K a year for a forward/ second ruck I'm looking for a bit more than structural benefits. I want someone who bobs up and kicks multiple goals a week.

To me the gamble is worth taking, because I think English can be that player but we need to consider that he might never be.

All good points.

Another to consider is that moving forward we have Naughton, JUH and Darcy as KPFs. That's excluding Bruce who can hopefully make a good return next year.

How do we fit Naughton, JUH, Darcy and English if none of them can be #1 rucks? I know some might mention Naughton or Darcy as options to play as a KPD, but if they're better forwards AND better forwards than English......

Look, I'd prefer English stays for the now, but I don't want us overpaying. He will never be more than a good second ruck/forward, but if he's not able to excel as a forward more than the likes of Naughton/Darcy/Marra then maybe we're better off finding a genuine #1 ruck and filling other areas (i.e. MJPs post).

[azabob]

Re: 2021 Rolling List Management Discussion

Tim English is heading to Rory Lobb territory with his potential contract... and is becoming more like Rory Lobb with his on field ability.

No way i'd be paying $750K+ for a Forward / Ruck.